EricNau
Sep 21, 04:34 PM
Dude. If this is your family, you need to be watching less TV and getting outside more. Or at least stay inside and play board-games with the kids. It's much more fun than vegging out on the couch.
geeze. Yeah, if I watched that much TV, I'd be complaining about the iTS too!
-Clive
It's not.
In my experience, video on demand is exactly what younger kids want. My boys (3 and 5, so not that far off your model family) watch more than their share of TV, but they tend to be quite "clumpy" in what they watch since they've grown up with PVRs all their life, they tend to watch lots of the same show, and rewatch things over and over. For instance tonight we were treated to 3 back-to-back episodes of "The Batman" from a recently released DVD and one episode of "Teen Titans" from the TiVo. I don't have to keep buying those shows, since once purchased or recorded, I have them. Tomorrow will be the younger one's choice, so my guess is we get to watch the Wiggles on DVD for the umpteenth time.
I do buy some shows on DVD of from iTunes just to get them off the PVR, to reward the content provider for things we enjoy, and create some space for new stuff to be recorded. For instance I bought two seasons worth of Dora The Explorer (49 shows) for $60.This works out to an average cost per episode of $1.22. On DVD they sell 4 episodes for $10-$16 which means a minimum cost per episode of $2.50, and up to $4. I no longer have to TiVo these and have them at my fingertips.
You're also still way off on your prices. The "multi-pass" for The Daily Show or Colbert is $9.99 for 16 shows (i.e. 4 weeks Monday-Thursday). You don't pay $2/show for them unless you're a masochist. Note also that you don't pay anything for half of the year since they are in reruns about half the time, so it works out to ~$60/year per show. (BTW What's the third TDS show? I guess I haven't been watching lately. :o)
News and sports are a completely different matter though.
B
You're right, my pricing was way off. When I originally calculated $150/month I was counting hours of TV multiplied by $2. Meaning I forgot to take into account season and multi-passes. Plus, when I was figuring daily shows I forgot to drop the weekends. :o
Either way, I am still willing to bet for a large family, cable is significantly cheaper (especially when you take into account all the TV watched for "background noise" (such as the food network)).
Plus the lack of news and sports and many, many TV shows would be a huge turnoff for a lot of customers.
geeze. Yeah, if I watched that much TV, I'd be complaining about the iTS too!
-Clive
It's not.
In my experience, video on demand is exactly what younger kids want. My boys (3 and 5, so not that far off your model family) watch more than their share of TV, but they tend to be quite "clumpy" in what they watch since they've grown up with PVRs all their life, they tend to watch lots of the same show, and rewatch things over and over. For instance tonight we were treated to 3 back-to-back episodes of "The Batman" from a recently released DVD and one episode of "Teen Titans" from the TiVo. I don't have to keep buying those shows, since once purchased or recorded, I have them. Tomorrow will be the younger one's choice, so my guess is we get to watch the Wiggles on DVD for the umpteenth time.
I do buy some shows on DVD of from iTunes just to get them off the PVR, to reward the content provider for things we enjoy, and create some space for new stuff to be recorded. For instance I bought two seasons worth of Dora The Explorer (49 shows) for $60.This works out to an average cost per episode of $1.22. On DVD they sell 4 episodes for $10-$16 which means a minimum cost per episode of $2.50, and up to $4. I no longer have to TiVo these and have them at my fingertips.
You're also still way off on your prices. The "multi-pass" for The Daily Show or Colbert is $9.99 for 16 shows (i.e. 4 weeks Monday-Thursday). You don't pay $2/show for them unless you're a masochist. Note also that you don't pay anything for half of the year since they are in reruns about half the time, so it works out to ~$60/year per show. (BTW What's the third TDS show? I guess I haven't been watching lately. :o)
News and sports are a completely different matter though.
B
You're right, my pricing was way off. When I originally calculated $150/month I was counting hours of TV multiplied by $2. Meaning I forgot to take into account season and multi-passes. Plus, when I was figuring daily shows I forgot to drop the weekends. :o
Either way, I am still willing to bet for a large family, cable is significantly cheaper (especially when you take into account all the TV watched for "background noise" (such as the food network)).
Plus the lack of news and sports and many, many TV shows would be a huge turnoff for a lot of customers.
aswitcher
Jul 12, 06:33 AM
I really hope they are right about a the low cost single chip version so we can make good home multimedia center.
killr_b
Oct 25, 11:01 PM
True but that new color correction software Apple just bought has some pretty steep requirements. I bet the next version of FCP will really be able to take serious advantage of their new wares. Also, I bet Leopard is going to be optimized to the limit for this type of hardware. Just my guess.
I hope so man, 'cause it's like having a ferrari and driving the speed limit.
Also can't wait to see what happens with the new CC aquisitions.
FCP color corection never impressed me.
I hope so man, 'cause it's like having a ferrari and driving the speed limit.
Also can't wait to see what happens with the new CC aquisitions.
FCP color corection never impressed me.
MattInOz
Apr 20, 09:55 PM
Its build right into the OS to allow tethering for Androids. I am not sure how exactly it is performed on iOS.
I don't think apple really has any think better on android. Android does have a file system, better notification and real multitasking.
Also built-in to the OS just go to settings-->personnel hotspot and flick the switch to on after heeding advice that additional charges may apply consult your carrier.
A file system could be useful, better notifications I can really understand.
"real" multitasking no-one has every been able to define a real world use that suggests that Apple's take on mobile multi-tasking means I'm missing out of function.
I know it's not "real" ie programme has free-rain to do what it pleases in the background. But how is it anymore than a marketing tag for geeks?
I don't think apple really has any think better on android. Android does have a file system, better notification and real multitasking.
Also built-in to the OS just go to settings-->personnel hotspot and flick the switch to on after heeding advice that additional charges may apply consult your carrier.
A file system could be useful, better notifications I can really understand.
"real" multitasking no-one has every been able to define a real world use that suggests that Apple's take on mobile multi-tasking means I'm missing out of function.
I know it's not "real" ie programme has free-rain to do what it pleases in the background. But how is it anymore than a marketing tag for geeks?
ct2k7
Apr 24, 06:30 PM
I lived for 5 years in Saudi Arabia. And yes, the above pretty much sums up their version of Islam. And, the only allowed religion is Islam, and if you live there women must dress and act appropriately, to include western women. It is a screwed up culture, but so be it.
Maybe because it's their country?
I definitely got the opposite impression when I was there a few years ago... People looked like they were having fun.
Maybe because it's their country?
I definitely got the opposite impression when I was there a few years ago... People looked like they were having fun.
blackburn
Apr 9, 05:06 PM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPod; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_2_1 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8C148 Safari/6533.18.5)
*Sniff*
*Sniff*
Troll.
Troll? Looks like your an apple fan boy.
*Sniff*
*Sniff*
Troll.
Troll? Looks like your an apple fan boy.
MacSA
Jul 12, 04:02 AM
At the bottom of the article they seem to imply that Apple will stick with Core Solo chips for the entry level mini.... YUCK :eek:
NT1440
Nov 5, 10:02 PM
I completely beleive it will surpass the iphone in marketshare, after all its going to be on just about every popular cell phone in the future, as well as crap phones. You gain marketshare when you flood the market, just like windows.
That said, from what I've read, android is actually a good platform, meaning that apple will continue to innovate to stay ahead.
That said, from what I've read, android is actually a good platform, meaning that apple will continue to innovate to stay ahead.
alust2013
Apr 5, 11:23 PM
What if I just want my top 10 favorites? In Windows I just drag the icon (of whatever I want) to the Start button, then drop it into the list of my favorites (I'm not sure of the actual term for this). Can this be done on a Mac?
Since I open the same 10 or 12 programs or folders or files many times throughout the day, every day, this is pretty important to me. It would absolutely mess up my work flow to lose this feature.
The dock is wonderful for that, and it can be auto hidden, somewhat like the taskbar in windows, but it works more naturally. You just mouse down, click your app and go. Expose and spaces are also brilliant features of the OS, that don't have exact equivalents in windows. I do have to say though, that win7 is actually pretty darn nice. I have it as a dual boot on my computer for games and miscellaneous stuff, and I could use it as my primary OS if I needed/wanted to. I'd sure miss my trackpad though...I haven't found a windows laptop that can touch it.
As for above post, the forward delete can be done via fn-delete, which comes in handy. I have the wired version so I do happen to have the dedicated key.
Since I open the same 10 or 12 programs or folders or files many times throughout the day, every day, this is pretty important to me. It would absolutely mess up my work flow to lose this feature.
The dock is wonderful for that, and it can be auto hidden, somewhat like the taskbar in windows, but it works more naturally. You just mouse down, click your app and go. Expose and spaces are also brilliant features of the OS, that don't have exact equivalents in windows. I do have to say though, that win7 is actually pretty darn nice. I have it as a dual boot on my computer for games and miscellaneous stuff, and I could use it as my primary OS if I needed/wanted to. I'd sure miss my trackpad though...I haven't found a windows laptop that can touch it.
As for above post, the forward delete can be done via fn-delete, which comes in handy. I have the wired version so I do happen to have the dedicated key.
edifyingGerbil
Apr 24, 02:13 PM
Many people say this, but they fail at the point where actions are of culture and not representative of the religion itself.
I invite you to demonstrate how Islam is a threat to freedom and democracy.
The Qur'an is considered the perfect and literal word of allah.
muhammad is considered allah's perfect man and messenger on earth to be emulated by all men.
Sharia law is derived from the qur'an and the sayings of muhammad (hadith, sunna).
Secular Democracy and democratic laws are made by human beings.
Human beings are necessarily not as perfect as God.
Therefore, under Islam adhering to man-made laws over divinely mandated laws is considered blasphemy.
I invite you to demonstrate how Islam is a threat to freedom and democracy.
The Qur'an is considered the perfect and literal word of allah.
muhammad is considered allah's perfect man and messenger on earth to be emulated by all men.
Sharia law is derived from the qur'an and the sayings of muhammad (hadith, sunna).
Secular Democracy and democratic laws are made by human beings.
Human beings are necessarily not as perfect as God.
Therefore, under Islam adhering to man-made laws over divinely mandated laws is considered blasphemy.
�algiris
May 2, 09:14 AM
so much for the no malware on macs myth :D
funny how the apple fanboys are getting all defensive :rolleyes:
It's an app, pal.
funny how the apple fanboys are getting all defensive :rolleyes:
It's an app, pal.
Consultant
Apr 20, 05:36 PM
Good to hear Jobs isn't planning to retire. The question about Android being like Windows was to the Mac to iOS was probably the dumbest question of the call.
Exactly. Android doesn't have the IBM that give them the PC market.
Verizon was Android's IBM but now iPhone is now on vz.
But just like Windows, it's practically impossible to have any problems unless you do something stupid.
Another analogy - if you buy a car and put the wrong type of oil in it or inflate the tyres to the wrong pressure, bad things will probably happen.
If you don't know what you're doing with your own devices then maybe you need Apple to hold your hand.
So you are insulting all Apple users as those who "don't know what you're doing with your own devices."
Perhaps you didn't realize MILLIONS of Android users downloaded malware.
Exactly. Android doesn't have the IBM that give them the PC market.
Verizon was Android's IBM but now iPhone is now on vz.
But just like Windows, it's practically impossible to have any problems unless you do something stupid.
Another analogy - if you buy a car and put the wrong type of oil in it or inflate the tyres to the wrong pressure, bad things will probably happen.
If you don't know what you're doing with your own devices then maybe you need Apple to hold your hand.
So you are insulting all Apple users as those who "don't know what you're doing with your own devices."
Perhaps you didn't realize MILLIONS of Android users downloaded malware.
cybaster
Mar 18, 10:31 AM
I don't think it is a bad thing for AT+T to prevent people from tethering to a laptop on an unlimited cell phone plan. Those people are just taking advantage of the system, and wasting bandwidth that the rest of us could use.
As far as I'm concerned it is the same as going to an all you can eat restaurant and sharing your food between two people, while only paying for one. It isn't a serious crime, but it is stealing, and you know that if you get caught you will have to stop. I'm not going to feel bad for these people that are using 5+GB per month.
Wait hold on.... Sharing food is illegal?
Really?
They can detect in a lot of way, for instance since you can't use flash on an iphone or iPad, if they see lots of flash stuff they you are probably tethering, also certain popular sites detect mobile devices and send the mobile version of the site if you are loading the full versions of those sites they could detect tethering, these are only a couple of simple things but there are plenty more, so I don't think this is going to be limited to the latest iOS.
Just my thought on the matter.
Way too much effort in sniffing the HTTP response just to find "flash" content to incriminate you for violating their terms of use (note i didn't say 'illegal')
As far as I'm concerned it is the same as going to an all you can eat restaurant and sharing your food between two people, while only paying for one. It isn't a serious crime, but it is stealing, and you know that if you get caught you will have to stop. I'm not going to feel bad for these people that are using 5+GB per month.
Wait hold on.... Sharing food is illegal?
Really?
They can detect in a lot of way, for instance since you can't use flash on an iphone or iPad, if they see lots of flash stuff they you are probably tethering, also certain popular sites detect mobile devices and send the mobile version of the site if you are loading the full versions of those sites they could detect tethering, these are only a couple of simple things but there are plenty more, so I don't think this is going to be limited to the latest iOS.
Just my thought on the matter.
Way too much effort in sniffing the HTTP response just to find "flash" content to incriminate you for violating their terms of use (note i didn't say 'illegal')
thejoshu
Mar 21, 01:32 AM
They owe it to us? The only people Apple owes anything to is their shareholders.
I am an Apple shareholder. I feel entitled to DRM-free products.
I am an Apple shareholder. I feel entitled to DRM-free products.
jchung
Mar 18, 11:25 AM
Two separate issues.
ATT can prove if you're tethering or not. This has nothing to do with how much data you are or are not using.
Even if you use 1KB via tether and you aren't on their plan - they have a leg to stand on.
Hardly, if people are complaining about theft from AT&T, by the customer, then the very same people should be complaining about theft from the customer by AT&T. That is what this incorrect data usage accounting amounts too. AT&T charging people for data usage that they did not use and that AT&T can not prove they used (based on the experience of customers calling AT&T and their usage of the AT&T management website).
The validity of an accusation, by a thief, that someone else is a thief is questionable.
ATT can prove if you're tethering or not. This has nothing to do with how much data you are or are not using.
Even if you use 1KB via tether and you aren't on their plan - they have a leg to stand on.
Hardly, if people are complaining about theft from AT&T, by the customer, then the very same people should be complaining about theft from the customer by AT&T. That is what this incorrect data usage accounting amounts too. AT&T charging people for data usage that they did not use and that AT&T can not prove they used (based on the experience of customers calling AT&T and their usage of the AT&T management website).
The validity of an accusation, by a thief, that someone else is a thief is questionable.
Caliber26
Apr 15, 09:43 AM
First and foremost, I myself am a gay male in his 20's. I know all about discrimination and bullying. I've lived it first-hand, but perhaps nowhere near to the extent that it appears to be common these days, where teenagers are basically pushed to suicide in some cases. It is sad and I can barely begin to imagine their pain.
With that said, however, I'm not super excited by these campaigns that seem to be sprouting, left and right, that, more or less, encourage people to be gay/lesbian/whatever. At the end of the day that's basically the underlying message in all these videos: "Go ahead, by gay. It's perfectly fine."
Personally, I think that is a decision that one has to arrive to after much soul-searching. It's a very private journey and I'm not so sure that the media should be offering this type of "GO FOR IT!" message. One should come to accept who he/she is and embrace the inevitable consequences of the lifestyle. Let's face it, it's not easy at all for the vast majority of people who live this lifestyle, no matter how picture-perfect they want to brag about how their life is. That's 100% BULL. I have a very open-minded family (who even welcomes my other half like a son of their own) and I live in Orlando (one VERY gay city), but this alternate route is nowhere near easy or rose-colored.
So, I'm very in between. I'm all for ensuring we don't get mistreated or discriminated but I also think all these teens (the target audience of these campaigns) shouldn't be exposed to this type of encouragement either. I'm very disgusted with the GLBT community as of late, with all the bigotry and one-sided attitude. It's funny how we all want to be heard, accepted, and given a chance to express ourselves and fight for what we believe in, but the minute any group, church, or organization stands behind their beliefs, they're immediately labeled as hateful, homophobes with no hearts. Seriously, WTF? Aren't THEY entitled to fight for what THEY believe in as well? I think respect is a two-way street. We sure cry and moan and whine if we don't get any of it, but I see a lot of my own community acting quick to bad-mouth anyone that doesn't support our agenda. Maybe that's why I'm so "eh" about this whole thing.
With that said, however, I'm not super excited by these campaigns that seem to be sprouting, left and right, that, more or less, encourage people to be gay/lesbian/whatever. At the end of the day that's basically the underlying message in all these videos: "Go ahead, by gay. It's perfectly fine."
Personally, I think that is a decision that one has to arrive to after much soul-searching. It's a very private journey and I'm not so sure that the media should be offering this type of "GO FOR IT!" message. One should come to accept who he/she is and embrace the inevitable consequences of the lifestyle. Let's face it, it's not easy at all for the vast majority of people who live this lifestyle, no matter how picture-perfect they want to brag about how their life is. That's 100% BULL. I have a very open-minded family (who even welcomes my other half like a son of their own) and I live in Orlando (one VERY gay city), but this alternate route is nowhere near easy or rose-colored.
So, I'm very in between. I'm all for ensuring we don't get mistreated or discriminated but I also think all these teens (the target audience of these campaigns) shouldn't be exposed to this type of encouragement either. I'm very disgusted with the GLBT community as of late, with all the bigotry and one-sided attitude. It's funny how we all want to be heard, accepted, and given a chance to express ourselves and fight for what we believe in, but the minute any group, church, or organization stands behind their beliefs, they're immediately labeled as hateful, homophobes with no hearts. Seriously, WTF? Aren't THEY entitled to fight for what THEY believe in as well? I think respect is a two-way street. We sure cry and moan and whine if we don't get any of it, but I see a lot of my own community acting quick to bad-mouth anyone that doesn't support our agenda. Maybe that's why I'm so "eh" about this whole thing.
dnedved
Sep 12, 05:26 PM
You're crazy! Jobs just demoed a wireless replacement for a $5.00 cable that connects your computer to your TV. If you think this will change everything you're nuts!
And the iPod is just like an overpriced walkman, nobody is going to buy it.
I can get this device + a decent sized flat panel for 600 USD. What else is out there that lets me sit on the couch with a remote in my hand and watch the video content on my NAS? Sure there's Mac mini which I was about to buy ($$$ and a full computer to maintain), Myth front-end (did I mention hassle?), a modded Xbox (not enough CPU for big h.264), and probably some ugly M$ thing, but not at this cost, and not with the hassle-free user-friendliness that Apple builds into their products. And not in a sleek little package that I can hide behind a wall-mounted LCD, wireless and silent-running to boot. I'm going to have at least 2 of these, I don't want a full-function computer to maintain in each room I want to watch video, I want an appliance.
In otherwords, don't disconnect your cable, over-the-air antenna, or satellite antenna anytime soon.
I already did over a year ago in anticipation of this device, and don't miss it. I've got my NAS filling up right now. Sure I may "watch TV" on my 17" PB for now, but only because this device isn't out yet. I'm glad I waited and didn't get the mini.
If you don't get it, then you just don't get and I can't make you understand. I can't make it any clearer for you. The world just changed. All assuming they actually release this product that is!
And the iPod is just like an overpriced walkman, nobody is going to buy it.
I can get this device + a decent sized flat panel for 600 USD. What else is out there that lets me sit on the couch with a remote in my hand and watch the video content on my NAS? Sure there's Mac mini which I was about to buy ($$$ and a full computer to maintain), Myth front-end (did I mention hassle?), a modded Xbox (not enough CPU for big h.264), and probably some ugly M$ thing, but not at this cost, and not with the hassle-free user-friendliness that Apple builds into their products. And not in a sleek little package that I can hide behind a wall-mounted LCD, wireless and silent-running to boot. I'm going to have at least 2 of these, I don't want a full-function computer to maintain in each room I want to watch video, I want an appliance.
In otherwords, don't disconnect your cable, over-the-air antenna, or satellite antenna anytime soon.
I already did over a year ago in anticipation of this device, and don't miss it. I've got my NAS filling up right now. Sure I may "watch TV" on my 17" PB for now, but only because this device isn't out yet. I'm glad I waited and didn't get the mini.
If you don't get it, then you just don't get and I can't make you understand. I can't make it any clearer for you. The world just changed. All assuming they actually release this product that is!
MACRUS
Apr 12, 10:45 PM
I think you missed the color correction on ingest, non-destructive color correction, and one-click color correction feature announcements. Color is not dead, it is just no longer a separate app. The entire app is re-written with color matching integrate to the app, and color correction as well, it sounds like.
HAHAHA One-click CC. you are funny or... well you know what.
HAHAHA One-click CC. you are funny or... well you know what.
nixd2001
Oct 12, 06:47 PM
Originally posted by ddtlm
The result for my OSX 10.2 DP 800 G4 on the floating test is 85.56 seconds. I used -O and -funroll-loops as flags.
So this is about 45% the speed of my P3-Xeon 700. Not very good at all, but it falls within the ream of believeability.
Other than a -O to enable/disable any optimisations at all, what effect can you achieve with the remaining optimistion flags to GCC? I'm more surprised by the lack of variation they achieve on PPC than the actual relative performance - having looked at the PPC code briefly, it looks like I'd expect it to be slow :mad:
The result for my OSX 10.2 DP 800 G4 on the floating test is 85.56 seconds. I used -O and -funroll-loops as flags.
So this is about 45% the speed of my P3-Xeon 700. Not very good at all, but it falls within the ream of believeability.
Other than a -O to enable/disable any optimisations at all, what effect can you achieve with the remaining optimistion flags to GCC? I'm more surprised by the lack of variation they achieve on PPC than the actual relative performance - having looked at the PPC code briefly, it looks like I'd expect it to be slow :mad:
storage
Jul 12, 05:22 PM
23" Matteblack Conroe iMac
Matteblack Bluetooth Might Mouse
Matteblack Bluetooth Keyboard
PLEASE :mad:
Matteblack Bluetooth Might Mouse
Matteblack Bluetooth Keyboard
PLEASE :mad:
SirOmega
Sep 26, 12:49 AM
Anandtech already reported the 4 core chips WILL WORK in the Mac Pro.
I can definately see how this is going to work out model wise. We'll see the current $2499 model and the up and down options, plus one quad core model at $3299 or possibly less depending on the dual core price drop.
Also, 8 cores would be insane for rendering workstations. 4 cores for rendering in the background, 2 for OS, 2 for other work.
I can definately see how this is going to work out model wise. We'll see the current $2499 model and the up and down options, plus one quad core model at $3299 or possibly less depending on the dual core price drop.
Also, 8 cores would be insane for rendering workstations. 4 cores for rendering in the background, 2 for OS, 2 for other work.
skunk
Mar 27, 07:46 PM
If I've harmed anyone in anyone in any way, I want to hear about that from the harmed ones. Everyone here is welcome to his opinion about me. If anyone here hates me, he's welcome to say so publicly or privately. But I think I'm the only one here who knows whether I hate anyone. We're strangers to one another.I do not hate you in the least, but I do recognise hateful, dogmatic propaganda when I see it.
JediZenMaster
Mar 18, 10:36 AM
ATT could use better price discrimination policies. There are many people who would like tethering, unrestricted 3G etc, who are more than willing to pay. Many would also give up unlimited data as long as ATT gave quality service at a decent price.
So have you seen what verizon charges for tethering? This forum is extremely slighted towards AT&T. Yet Verizon charges more for tethering and they seem to get a free pass.
So compared to the other carrier that offers the iPhone the tethering with AT&T is a "decent" price.
So have you seen what verizon charges for tethering? This forum is extremely slighted towards AT&T. Yet Verizon charges more for tethering and they seem to get a free pass.
So compared to the other carrier that offers the iPhone the tethering with AT&T is a "decent" price.
Rt&Dzine
Mar 26, 12:04 AM
Are you serious? That's a horrible thing to say. They should deprive themselves of sex because your 2000 year old book says so? That's crap. God made them born that way, for what? Just to torture them for their whole lives? I hope you understand that this makes no sense. And as for the catholic church recognizing that they are born that way and do not choose it, that's a load of crap. If you believe that, then you are seriously misguided. If god is so loving, wouldn't he have made them born heterosexual so they could live a normal life and have sex with members of the opposite gender? Why would god make someone gay? Your logic is so flawed im having a hard time expressing myself in words.
Priests can't even follow their vows of chastity yet they expect it of Catholic lay people too�divorcees and homosexuals. Never worked, never will.
Lay people, snicker.
Priests can't even follow their vows of chastity yet they expect it of Catholic lay people too�divorcees and homosexuals. Never worked, never will.
Lay people, snicker.
